Episode 73 of 1up’s Retronauts podcast had host Jeremy Parish chatting with Ray Barnholdt, Sam Kennedy, and Wired’s Chris Kohler. They talked about Michael Jackson for a while and also spent quite a bit of time on the classic franchises getting flashy new reinventions at E3 2009. One of those franchises is, as we know, Castlevania.
I’ve listened to the show now, and have transcribed the section below.
In summary, they cover how the Igarashi showing (that brief Alucard trailer) last year concurrent with Lords of Shadow (back before it was a Castlevania game) illustrated how abruptly the decision was made at Konami to make Lords of Shadow the next console Castlevania, sidelining and perhaps even canceling Igarashi’s new project. They talk about how Kojima’s name on the project doesn’t mean what some people are hoping. They go on to point out that they feel Iga has yet to produce a good 3D video game, and that it’s believed he was involved with Contra Rebirth, so logically it makes sense he’s working on Castlevania Rebirth.
The Retronauts are split on whether a Devil May Cry/God of War style Castlevania is likely to be a good thing. Some attention was given to the potential that Lament of Innocence showed with its environments and visuals. There was talk of what exactly makes Castlevania special, and it’s not clear whether anyone who’s been traditionally associated with the series, including composer Michiru Yamane, will be involved with Lords of Shadow, and some light discussion of what Kojima’s involvement in Castlevania could bring in terms of storytelling.
Read the full text below, if you’re so inclined. The segment begins around 32:45 into the show. I’ve removed a lot of extraneous text.
JEREMY PARISH: So, the one final series to kind of get a kick in the pants at E3 was Castlevania.
CHRIS KOHLER: Yeah. Kick in the nuts, depending on who you are.
JP: So, you know, the game that’s being released as Castlevania: Lords of Shadow has been floating around for like, a year, and it was not a Castlevania game until E3.
SAM KENNEDY: And it’s an Italian developer? Or, no, Spanish, that’s right.
CK: Spanish.
JP: It’s the up-and-coming. It’s the Korea of Europe.
CK: (laughter) Hope it’s the South Korea of Europe. So, um, there were two games announced within a month of each other, right? At Leipzig, Konami announced Lords of Shadow. Immediately following, like literally… no actually, weeks of each other right? Cause it was Leipzig and Tokyo Game Show was the next weekend, right? Or something like that?
JP: Koji Igarashi was like, “We’re making a sequel to Symphony of the Night, guys!”
CK: …shows a trailer for his own 3D next-gen multi-platform Castlevania game.
SK: I mean, there was hardly anything to that trailer, but the fact that it was… you know.
CK: But it was a separate project. And now one is dead and the other remains.
JP: And the other is a Castlevania game. It’s like a vampire who killed the living Castlevania game, and then… never mind.
SK: We pretty much assume that game is dead. The Igarashi one. We’ve heard things too, but… they’ve never said it’s dead.
CK: They never said that it’s dead, but the fact that they’ve just taken this other random game, branded it Castlevania, and are not saying anything about the other one would kind of suggest to me that in fact it’s dead.
JP: Also, a lot of people are very excited about it because it’s “Hideo Kojima presents…” but guys, no. No, Kojima’s not working on this game in any real capacity. Kojima is an executive at Konami now, and he has this rubber stamp with his name on it. And he sees cool projects and says (thumps) stamps his name on it.
CK: “Kojima Productions!”
SK: I mean, there’s going to be a ton of Konami games in the future that are gonna have his name on it.
CK: Right, because they’ve determined that he’s the only person inside of their company that like can make a competent next-generation video game, so, yeah.
JP: Hope you like Metal Gear, ’cause there’s a whole lot of that coming.
SK: So the big question is, did Konami look at this game and say, “wow, this is worthy of having the Castlevania name,” or did they just like, “Oh shit, we need a Castlevania…”
JP: I think they may have said… I’m pretty sure that what they said was, “this other game is not really what we wanna do with the series,” because yeah, I don’t know. Has Igarashi ever done anything good in 3D? (whispers) The answer is no!
CK: I feel like they looked at both games, and were just like, OK, this looks a lot like a Castlevania game. This one is a Castlevania game. This game looks so much better than this other game.
SK: This was also probably a punishment for Castlevania Judgment, or whatever it was. The Wii fighting game. They were probably like, “Iga… sorry.”
JP: “Is that the best you could do?”
RAY BARNHOLDT: Wasn’t that the punishment, though?
SK: To like, have to make that game? (laughter)
JP: I think back to last year at E3, where every time I was on the show floor, I saw Koji Igarashi kind of hovering around the Konami booth, sort of watching despondently as people would try out Castlevania Judgment and shake their heads and put it down.
SK: He was doing that at TGS, as well.
CK: With the hat and the whip. This guy wears a hat and carries a whip in public. Like, he is so in love with Castlevania. It’s got to be so hard.
SK: But it’s also almost like a travesty that he was not at that press conference where they announced this new one. I mean, for obvious reasons, but it was like, when I heard that I was like, “What? You guys just announced a new Castlevania and he was not there?”
CK: He may not be involved.
SK: He’s probably not at all.
JP: I’m sure he’s not.
SK: Yeah, but that was like, oh, wow. I mean, to me, he is Mr. Castlevania. It’d be, in a lot of ways, like if a Metal Gear was announced without Kojima there.
RB: But in a lot of ways, he’s also Mr. 2D Castlevania, and he’s been at GDC extolling the virtues of 2D games, and… He loves Castlevania, and I’m sure if I was him, the way I would deal with it, well, you know, I’ll probably still get to make 2D ones, so.
JP: Yeah, I mean, wasn’t he involved in the new WiiWare Contra game?
SK: There was something about that, but I don’t know…
JP: I believe I’ve heard he’s on staff, so let’s put two and two together.
SK: Right, exactly.
CK: Yeah true, that would be great, if they looked at like, Mega Man 9 and Contra Rebirth and everything, OK, Castlevania Rebirth.
JP: Lords of Shadow is kind of the actual rebirth of the series, sort of. I guess.
CK: Well, yes. Yes. Semantics.
JP: Oh, sorry. Semantics.
SK: But clearly, something happened there. The fact that he wasn’t there, he’s the kind of figure for Castlevania. Very telling.
JP: Kojima’s giant thumb reached forward and snubbed him. So, I’m ambivalent about the new Castlevania game. The trailer was very impressive looking. But on the other hand, it kind of looked like, oh, they’ve turned Castlevania into God of War, and that doesn’t really interest me.
CK: Yeah, you know what? It interests the hell out of me, cause I mean, I’ve never played a good 3D Castlevania game, so maybe just God of War with a Castlevania skin slapped on it?
SK: I liked the PS2 games. They weren’t great, by any means. They were OK.
JP: People have been saying for years that, hey, Castlevania needs to be done just like Devil May Cry, just like God of War, so now they’re actually doing that, and I’ve never really gotten into those games. They don’t have any appeal to me. I’ve tried playing them and have said, mmm.
CK: I like God of War more than I like any Devil May Cry or any 3D Castlevania, like, far and away.
SK: I like ‘em all, for different reasons. I mean, I liked the 3D Castlevanias just because they were the closest thing I could get to Castlevania in 3D.
CK: (laughter) “Closest thing!” I guess I like the idea of Castlevania in 3D, and maybe the fact that nobody has been able to execute on it, maybe that just means that you can’t make a 3D Castlevania.
SK: I don’t know. I remember the first time I played Devil May Cry, and I was like, “Shit, this is what Castlevania should be.”
JP: I played it and I’m, “I’m so glad this is not what Castlevania became.” I really did not like it.
SK: Not exactly the gameplay or anything, but just the environments, the first part of Devil May Cry 1, you’re just like, that could be a Castlevania right there. And the camera was OK.
JP: Lament of Innocence was a great looking game for the time. And if you had taken out all the copy-and-paste repetition, if you had fixed the really lousy level progression and everything, just the environments themselves were really really cool. They had the material for a really nice Castlevania game there, it just didn’t come together.
CK: I guess the question is, “what is Castlevania?”
JP: It’s a guy killin’ Dracula with a whip, and sometimes with a sword, sometimes with magic emblems on her tattooed back.
CK: Then that should be really easy to do in 3D.
SK: There are so many components to it, too. Part of it is the soundtrack from… um…
that’s an element of what makes a Castlevania game. The thing is with this new one, if it has just some very God of War style soundtrack or whatever…
JP: I hope it is new metal. Because I think any medieval style game is so much better with new metal. Look at Dragon Age. Those trailers…
CK: Well if they can get, you know, what’s-her-name to do the soundtrack.
JP: Michiru Yamane?
CK: Yeah.
SK: That would be a part of it, and, you know?
JP: But I kind of wonder if they’re just going to make a clean break, if they’re going to say like, no you guys have done the wrong thing with Castlevania, so none of you are invited back.
CK: No, I think putting it under Kojima’s control certainly means that it’s not as, it’s not like a total independent project. You know what I mean, they’re not just having them doing it off in Spain, and then they sending them the final version, and they’re like, OK, cool. You know, obviously there is input from Japan, so I would assume that Kojima would go to the people who actually did a good job doing things for Castlevania and hook them up with them.
SK: We’ll see. I hope he’s not involved in the story.
JP: Maybe the story’s OK, but the cutscenes, no.
CK: A medusa head flows by, and Simon’s like, “Medusa, do you think that love can grow on a battlefield?”
RB: It’ll be fine, it has Patrick Stewart, you guys, come on.
CK: Oh, right, I forgot about that. Patrick Stewart.
JP: (mimicking Stewart) I’m looking forward to it, Number One.
CK: Facepalm.
SK: Engage.
JP: So, I’m hoping for the ability to look at Medusa’s breasts jiggle in close detail, because that’s an integral element of Kojima.
RB: I like that you mentioned that with Castlevania, but you could have done that with Metroid, too.
JP: Yeah, but Igarashi’s gone, remember? Or, Itagaki, sorry. Itagaki and Igarashi.
RB: “The soul still burns.”
CK: (laughter) Wrong series altogether.
RB: Sorry. I was just thinking about breasts.
CK: (laughter) All the time. That’s why Ray doesn’t talk a lot on these podcasts.
JP: So that his deviance will have more impact.